The flip side to Publisher's Lunch

So John Scalzi and some buddies of his were sitting around the bar at Noreascon and devised more realistic terms for book deals as a complement to what Publisher's Lunch uses:

$0 to $3,000: A Shitty Deal. Because that's what it is, my friends. Possibly the only thing worse than a shitty deal is no deal at all. Possibly.

$3,000 to $5,000: A Contemptible Deal. The deal you get when your publisher has well and truly got your number, and it is low.

$5,000 to $10,000: A "Meh" Deal. It's not great, you know. But you can pay some bills. Get a few of these, and a tolerant spouse with a regular income, and you can tell your day job to piss off. This year, anyway.

$10,000 to $20,000: A Not Bad Deal. Note that "not bad" here should be said with a slight appreciative rise of the eyebrows and a small approving nod -- this is the level at which the money begins to look not embarrassing both to writers and non-writers. A couple of these, and you'll definitely be punting the day job (I did, anyway).

$20,000 to $100,000: A "Shut Up!" Deal. This needs to be said in the same enviously admiring vocal tone as a teenage girl might use to her girlfriend who is showing off the delicious new pumps she got at Robinsons-May for 30% off, or the vocal tone (same idea, lower register) Jim Kelly used when one of our number admitted to having at least a couple of deals in this range. With this kind of money, you don't even need a supportive spouse to avoid the Enforced Top Ramen Diet (although, you know. Having one doesn't hurt). But it's not so much that the other writers actively begin to hate you.

$100,000 and above: "I'm Getting the Next Round." Because if you're at this level, you can buy and sell all the other writers at the table. Get 'em a friggin' beer, for God's sake (ironically, this is the only level not thought up at the bar, but in the cold hard light of the next morning, by Shara Zoll).

I freely admit that this made me laugh, but Jim Winter took a bit of a different tack in his reaction:

According to Scalzi, et al, the scale should begin with shitty, meaning $0-$3000. I don't consider mine shitty. I consider it dumb luck. To me, shitty is forking over $500 to iUniverse or XLibris to publish your book because you're too scared to collect rejection slips.

Still, if you've sold books in the past, have a track record, and still get under $3000, yeah, that's shitty.

$3000-10,000 is Contemptible. (For a first time author, it's very damn lucky.)

I suppose in an ideal world, we wouldn't even have to talk about how much authors make advance-wise, but in an ideal world, we wouldn't be deluged with box-office weekend grosses either. But if all deals, large and small, got reported, then perhaps people would be a hell of a lot more realistic about their prospects based on the money they actually got, instead of thinking they can dream big. Except, of course, I'll be the one getting the major deal someday. Yeah.

Comments

[Aldo]

I just wish that I could get a rebate, like the Discover Card, for all the books that I have purchased, especially for the ones that now function as door stops, and dust collectors in the garage waiting the next garage sale of Salvation Army drop.

There is one missing category - Pro Bono. Writing for the pleasure of it or because you just need to.

[Jim Winter]

I don't think the lower scales should apply to new authors. Shitty, Contemptible, and Meh should be, newer authors, lucky, damned lucky, and OK, better get an agent. If you're still getting one of those after, say, the third book, then the Scalzi scale should apply.

After all, I met an author with an Unnamed Major House over the summer. His deal with Unnamed Major House was worse than my no-advance deal with a POD publisher. Mine was lucky. His was shitty. It's not like UMH didn't have $10K they could flip him to promote the thing. That's just shitty.

However, if UMH makes an offer, I'll gladly cash their contemptible check. My car's getting old anyway; Daddy needs a new one.

[John Rickards]

I can't remember if my US deal was Shitty or Contemptible, but as it was only a secondary contract I wasn't too bothered. 'Course, I've since found out about SMP's habit of buying Brit books on the cheap, selling a limited run and making a profit thanks to the low overheads, and then moving on to someone else, which strikes me as a bit nasty.

[Kevin Wignall]

Well, as someone with a couple of "Shut Ups" in the US and an "I'll get the next round" in the UK (though as some of you know, I'm currently not in contract at all in the UK), I read these lists and felt like shouting, "trust me, what you're aspiring to isn't as great as you might think". Don't get me wrong, I'm aware that I've been very lucky - what I'm really saying is that an "I'll get the next round" deal, and certainly a "shut up" deal, is pretty minor to some publishing houses, and might not guarantee the support or the success that you would expect.
Finally, Jim, I'm sorry, but I think you have been unlucky because Northcoast Shakedown "should" have secured you at least a two-book "Shut Up" with a good sized publishing house. I can only assume the bigger deals will come later down the line for you.
Oh, very finally, to address your point, Sarah, I do think writers should be more open and honest with each other. The more information we all have about true advances, the more power we have in negotiations.

[Jim Winter]

Yes, but no one would have given me the time of day without the Shitty (Scalzi scale.) In short order, I got a 3-book Shitty on a single query, then an agent who wanted to go for a Shut Up on the second one, and only because I got the Shitty. And if I can move 500 copies (Northcoast Shakedown makes a great gift, folks. Out in time for the holidays!), I might move up to a Shut Up. (Unfortunately, with my connections, that might end up being with Unnamed Major House, who is known for their overworked, understaffed PR department, which means I have to go hire my own PR person. Won't stop me from cashing their check.)

[Jim Winter]

I meant move up to a Not Bad. A Shut Up will require more work on my part.

[Jenny D]

I think Kevin's call for openness is just the right idea. It really does help us all figure things out & make good choices if we know as much as possible.

BTW, I hate to sound really sanctimonious, but I have never been happier than the day that Soft Skull offered me an advance of $300 to publish my first novel. (No, that's not a typo--I am proud to say I got an advance in the low three figures...) I had been turned down by so many agents that I was at my wit's end as to what I could do to get the damn book published, and this was a huge reprieve. And they got it to the right people so that I got a bunch of reviews, including the NYTBR, and set me up a ton of readings, and I still feel that that deal was a better bargain for me than a $20,000 advance from a big press that didn't really care about the book. That is not to say I wouldn't love a massive book deal that would let me buy everybody many, many rounds of drinks, but I do still feel pretty lucky that my novel was published at all!

[John Rickards]

'Cos my bunch at Penguin are a very nice crowd, I suppose I should stick up for them to say it is possible to land a big deal with a major house that does care about the book. It's not easy - I struck lucky with my first in that they were relaunching their crime list with the aim of taking on a relatively small number of authors, putting the time and effort into them and pushing them hard (or harder than they would otherwise), rather than trying for loads of books and blanket market coverage in the hope of landing a hit more by accident than design. But it can happen.

Bloody good thing too, as if my editor was overworked and didn't have the time to put in, I'd be in trouble - my first drafts tend to suck quite badly... :-)

[Rebecca]

As with any job (well, maybe not ANY, but many), I think it's fair to look at what you might call "quality of work life" issues as well as salary. John mentions having a good editor and/or not having a copy editor. I'd add that I was in the position of receiving a two-book deal cold. The advances for the individual books were in what I think is quite unfairly called the "contemptible" range (uh, guys, do you know what musicians, childcare workers, health aides, etc. make?), but since there were two they moved up to the (low) "not bad." Quite frankly, I didn't care.

I still don't. I have gone through three books with the same editor, same marketing director, same publicist, etc. and enjoy a good relationship with them. (If I didn't waste all my time reading blogs I might now also have submitted a fourth.) Because they are within half an hour of my home I can drop by the office and talk to them if I have a question, or issue...or just if I want to show them my scrapbook photos from my summer vacation. (We used to call this "looking for a dustjacket cover." We stopped the pretence when my editor started showing pictures of her grandkids in return.) My editor did a read through and began a line edit of my third manuscript before she even got around to offering me a contract!

I don't know if I'll remain writing mysteries forever, but as long as I do I'm confident that they'll publish my books, and don't have to worry about my sales. If I move into another field....well, I hang out with the publisher as well as the editor, and I think he'd give almost anything I wrote at least a sympathetic read. It's a very relaxed, low-stress relationship, and for me that's worth it. (Of course, I also don't have a pressing desire to quit my day job, nor do I have puppies, kittens, or children to provide for.) That said, of course I'm open to "I'll buy this round" offers....;-)

[Emily]

I'm with the 'good publisher' trumps 'Shut Up' advance gang. My publisher is very small, but prestigious and dedicated to publishing good books well. My advance was 'shitty' but the attention and support I've received as a first-time unknown author more than compensates. Of course, it would be nice to have both. Maybe next book. Or the one after the one after that.

[Donna]

As someone who, until a couple of months ago had no intention of ever writing a book, let alone getting it published, I'm still at the 'how does this whole thing work and what do I do next?' stage. I would rename 'shitty' to 'You want to give me HOW much? Do I hug you, or warn your family and friends that you should be committed?' Even if I had got an advance I wouldn't have spent it - what happens when my book only sells 6 copies (and 5 of those are to my mother) and they want the advance back? The only person who's read it so far is my editor (and I STILL feel silly saying things like 'my editor') Sunshine Al Guthrie, and I daily anticipate the phone call that says "This is Carstairs Secure Hospital. Mr Guthrie is back on his meds now and says he's sorry."
Donna

[Terrill Lankford]

The problem with accepting low advances for your first book or books is that there will probably be very little support for the book at the publishing house afterwards (publicity budgets are usually tied very closely to advances). You will probably also have a small print run. It's very hard to sell 10,000 books if they only print 5,000. A second printing will also be unlikely. Many publishers now base the print run of a second book on the SALES of a writer's first book, as if the very same people, and only the very same people, will find the second book and buy it. The end result of that logic is mathematically obvious.

The big trouble starts after you get the good reviews and try to move up a few rungs on the publishing ladder. The first thing new publishers do is inquire about your previous sales figures at your old publishing house. If the number is low, it is harder for an editor to get the sale approved by the powers-that-be. If they do get the sale through, they will probably offer you an advance that reflects your lack of previous sales. In other words, your low numbers can haunt you for a long, long time. Often a first time author is offered a bigger advance from a credible publishing house than an established writer who jumps over with low sales figures by his side. The thinking goes that the new guy is an unknown factor, but they already know what you're not capable of. At least that's the angle they play.

This news won't trouble people who just want to be published, but for writers who seek to do this for a living, these practices can be very destructive to a career. There are many pubishers out there (and I think we all know who they are) who have crunched the numbers and worked it out that if they offer a low enough advance and do little or nothing to promote the book they will make enough money off library sales to make a profit. Whatever they can pick up from Amazon, the chains, the indies, and the friends and relatives of the author is gravy. Building writers' careers is not their primary interest. It's a scattergun approach. But that philosophy contributes to the flood of books out there, many of them unworthy. And that makes it much harder for the cream to rise to the top.

I know it's tough out there. But I've seen far too many writers jump at the first offer they get just because they don't want to face future rejection or are afraid they'll never be published if they wait for a decent deal from a better house. When the advances are very low, they usually live to regret the decision in many different ways. Sometimes not being published is a preferable fate to being published poorly. It's not as easy to climb out of the gutter as many people think.

TL

[Terrill Lankford]

I should add that the above comments were specifically directed at the "library mill" publishers, not indie houses with limited budgets who are doing their best to publish good work that has been overlooked by the majors. Obviously, getting published well by a publisher with little money is better than being published poorly by one of the big conglomerates. Even if you DID get the big advance.

TL

[Jim Winter]

To be honest, I don't trust the big houses. I've seen too many writers careers destroyed by the big advance they couldn't earn out. Hello! Nobody's heard of this person! You have to build a following! At least I get a free television ad I can run anywhere (Air time is dirt cheap on cable.) and Borders is always happy to see me. ("You brought us a galley proof? Do you have more? Can you do appearances in December?" Yeah. I like that stuff.) Besides, there's something to be said for getting a following BEFORE you start collecting checks. And the day job helps considerably with the writing.

I look at it this way. If I get enough Shut Ups to pay cash for a house and replace both our cars, I'll ditch the day job on the next deal. Maybe then I'll get the next round. Until then, slow and steady wins the marathon.

[Ray]

Sarah said: "I freely admit that this made me laugh" and I'm glad I wasn't the only one, because judging from some of the reactions to the piece, the whole advance business seems to be a deeply depressing thing. Which in itself has been educational, of course.

But my take on the thing? I have one book, set to come out in October. Before that, I was writing shorts. And no matter how good that book of mine may be, it went round the houses before it was published and for that I was thankful when it was picked up. I became more thankful when I realised that the press I was with took time with its authors, would soon become reputable for putting out quality fiction and had some genius design.

It was more than I could have hoped for. They didn't pay an advance; I didn't care. And to be honest, I still don't. And yeah, myself and the wife have gone through the "what ifs", but we both realise that it's going to be a long time before I can afford to give up the day job, if indeed I ever do.

I'd rather use that first publication to get another publication and build up a body of work.

Am I wary of the big houses? Yeah, they'll probably skin me (my agent should stop that), but then again, do I honestly care at the end of the day as long as the books are out there and people are reading them? It sounds idealistic, and perhaps I'm completely naive, but that's the way I think at the moment. Because let's face it, if I didn't have this sick compulsion to write, I certainly wouldn't be looking for the big bucks in the writing game...

[Jim Winter]

Yeah, Ray, on the Scalzi Scale o' Deals, yours is a Shitty, same as mine. But whereas mine has a little bit of PR support and good relations with one of the chains, yours has some prestige, thanks to a mix of old and new blood.

Shitty? Yeah, but as some of my more herbally befuddled friends put it, this is some good shitty!

Now, if you get a Contemptible from a big house after all your hard work and the boost from the PointBlank PR machine, that would be just... um... shitty.

All right now. Confess, Ray. When's THE BIG BLIND coming out?

[Ray]

Ummm, October. That's about as specific a date as I have at the moment. End of, maybe. November. I dunno. It's coming out, though. I know that much. It's even got its own page at PB now. And by the way, did you know that you're allowed to say "shite" and "pecker" on the back cover of a book, but "fuck" might cause problems? Not that I'm bothered but as people know, swearing makes up a large part of my vocabulary. That, and various "Nell"-type noises.

"Gahdya-anjeeeeeh!"

[Al Guthrie]

There's another way of looking at small press publication, which shows a very different picture. The idea that small press publication is the kiss of death doesn't hold sway in Scotland. The three biggest names in Scottish crime writing, the guys who are indelibly stamped on the world literary map, all did it the 'wrong' way. Ian Rankin and Alexander McCall Smith both started at Polygon, a very small Scottish publisher. And Irvine Welsh begun his writing career at Rebel Inc, an imprint of Canongate, who were another very small Scottish publisher(at the time). Their advances? A cup of tea and a biscuit. Maybe a quick toke, in Welsh's case. Do any of them regret it? I don't think so. And what about the first-time writers who received massive advances and had correspondingly massive expectations made of them, which they then failed to live up to? How many of them have disappeared without a trace, a stack of money in the bank but no career? Not only that, but branded failures by their publishers, even though they probably sold more copies than Rankin or McCall Smith did on their first outings. I'm unconvinced that building up a readership through small press beginnings is a bad thing. Small press publication is an introductory level, sure. But sometimes that can be a great place to start.

[Dave Zeltserman]

Al,

To me the lack of an advance doesn't matter, the big problem with a small press publication - especially those using POD technology - is the lack of distribution. In some areas of the US, and I'm sure in Edinburgh, people take pride in a local author and a small press book can flourish. My problem, I live in Needham MA, 15 miles from Boston, home of Robin Cook, Denis Lehane, Robert Parker, Jeremiah Healy, and countless others (including nonauthor celebrities like David Mamet and John Malcovich) and nobody cares about a small author. There's one bookstore in Needham, a chain, and I even know the manager there - take Kung Fu with her husband, and she can't get FAST LANE into the store - hell, she can't even get HOT BLOOD 12 which will be published by Kensington Books. And even if she did and arranged for a reading, maybe a few neighbors and some of the people from my Kung Fu studio would show up, but 99.9 percent of the people in my town wouldn't care about a local author. We're just too jaded here. And forget about a mention from the Boston Globe. Even my local Needham paper is owned by the Boston Herald and has 0 interest in doing stories about a local author (yes, I did try contacting them). Excuse the rant, but the benefit of being published by a small press can depend greatly on your location.

-Dave Z. (during one of my frustrated and bitter moments)

[Jim Winter]

What I'm doing:

Mailing letters to as many indie bookstores as possible.

Sending ARCs to ones I think will really move some copies.

Putting aside cash to order copies for out-of-trunk sales.

Talking with Barnes & Noble to work around that blasted Ingram no-return listing. (Which, Al, you might be interested to know may be corrected by year's end.) It's a crummy deal I'll only break even on, but better to be on good terms with the local CRM when a better contract (and distribution comes along.)

Working with Borders - Well, my publisher's got an in with them. I love it when the manager at the Eastgate store smiles when I walk in the door.

Business cards

Bookmarks

Cheap web adverts

Cheap cable advertising (Well, we get an ad produced at no charge to us, so either we or a bookstore can buy cable air time, which is dirt cheap.)

Flyers in the breakroom at work. Flyers on windshields. Flyers in grocery stores.

Shilling for public speaking gigs. (I STRONGLY recommend every small press author join Toastmasters. Learn to speak, and you'll move books on your own.)

Keeping my agent in the loop ('cuz I really need to pound that manuscript into shape for him.)

Sitting in a bar/doctor's office/BMV line/restaurant: "Yeah, I wrote a book. Here's my card."

Yes, this is mostly penny-ante stuff, but the sad irony of small press is that you're not going to sell much through bookstores. Not the chains, anyway. Part of it's Ingram's fault, since they own Lightning Source and fear returns (and you can blame that on the 65 of the 108 small presses using LS that won't take returns. They should all go belly up and quit dragging us down, dammit!) There's another chain that gives me fits a million because they don't even hire staff that can spell book, much less know what a galley is. (A friend at BN told me that chain's local manager would have been fired before her first day was out for that one if she worked for Barnes & Noble.) You're moving triple-digit numbers, but them's the breaks. The rule of thumb is that a big house won't talk to you unless you can move a minimum of 500 copies in six months (1000 is better) with a small press. Miss that mark, and they'll wait until you move 3000 (and how fast can you do that?)

The distribution listings are complete and total bullshit. The chains might strike a deal with your publisher, but usually the person setting that up is fired or promoted (or quits) before that can be sealed. (Like I said, I got lucky with Borders.)

Me? I make friends with as many indie store owners and managers as I can, give them almost anything they want. My coworkers and high school alumni think it's cool to have a writer amongst them. I plan to exploit that. I know my weekends from mid-November on (with the exception of a vacation in South Carolina over Thanksgiving) are shot. If I'm not signing or speaking somewhere, I'll be sticking bookmarks under windshield wipers. It's cheap and a little humiliating, but guess what, kids. It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock and roll.

[Babs Horton]

The day I signed a two book deal was one of the best ever-I virtually ran the length of Oxford Street London because I was so full of adrenaline and excitement. I've been treated really well, had some memorable nights out and the help from my agent,editor, publicist and the art department has been excellent. My first book, A JARFUL OF ANGELS is selling well- sold approx 40,000 in first six months and my second DANDELION SOUP is selling well too. I know I'm not in the same league as the Big Guys but I have signed another two book deal with the same people and they have doubled my last advance.
It would be great to earn enough to stop working as my difficulties lie in combining work in a psychiatric unit, home and family and finding the hours to write.I don't have a lot of time to go for readings/signings etc. I'm hoping next year to take some time out and go all out on promoting my third book. When I've been out there on the road I've loved it- even the terror of facing the first public reading to a large audience. My most terrifying moment was attending a prize giving for a Book Award- I was up with some well knowns and didn't consider winning- when they announced my name I had to think of an acceptance speech double quick. All in all I'm having a great time with a great team at Simon and Schuster